This Week Health

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November 14, 2022: Patty Hayward, Vice President, Strategy Healthcare and Life Sciences for Talkdesk joins Bill for the news. We are in the midst of a "Great Breakup". Women leaders are demanding more and leaving their companies in unprecedented numbers to get it. Healthcare decision makers can pick from thousands of options to strike deals with digital health companies But having all these choices means the selection process must be very comprehensive. Healthcare providers and healthcare payers are struggling to respond fast to people’s health experience expectations which means patient loyalty is at stake. What are the key differences between loyalty and leaving?

Key Points:

  • Women leaders are demanding more 
  • We aren't promoting as many women into management as men
  • In this remote work world that we live in, re-training managers is key
  • Talkdesk


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This transcription is provided by artificial intelligence. We believe in technology but understand that even the smartest robots can sometimes get speech recognition wrong.

Today on This Week Health.

I think during the pandemic, a lot of folks adopted quickly single platforms that did maybe one thing text messaging or, or something in order to sort of relieve pressure on phone systems and different things like that. And now they're coming back and trying to figure out did that solve the problem? Did we just sort of band-aid it? Is it putting unintentional silos of communication together, which we obviously don't need anymore of. So I think there's not only a, Hey, we've gotta adopt some new things, but there's a step back to say, did we get what we wanted when we first purchased these different technologies.

It's Newsday. My name is Bill Russell. I'm a former CIO for a 16 hospital system and creator of This Week Health, a channel dedicated to keeping health IT staff current and engaged. Special thanks to CrowdStrike, Proofpoint, Clearsense, MEDITECH, Cedars-Sinai Accelerator, Talkdesk and DrFirst who are our Newsday show sponsors for investing in our mission to develop the next generation of health 📍 leaders.

All right. It's News Day and today we're joined by Patty Hayward, VP of Strategy for healthcare and life Science. For talk desk. How are you doing, Patty?

I'm great, Bill. How are you doing?

Good. I see your background is over water and looking out over the beach. Is that real or is that a, is that a

It's a, one of those lovely Zoom backgrounds that you can find . Oh, okay. I actually live in the desert.

Oh, you, that's, that's why you, So it really is a head fake. It really is a head fake for you, . Yeah, my background is the same as it, it's always been, and this is real by the way. Yes. I can see. I had some people from the industry into my house and they were surprised to find out that that picture of Einstein over my shoulder is actually a painting that my daughter did.

Oh. And they were like, Oh, we thought we just put it there to make people think you're smarter. And I'm like, I did do that. But it's actually a painting my daughter did for gave me for Christmas, and it's, it's that good that they look at it and go, Oh, that, I thought that was that poster from the Think different campaign.

So yeah. That's awesome. Hey, we've got some fun topics today. So we are in the midst of the great breakup. Women leaders are demanding more and leaving the. in unprecedented numbers. So we're gonna talk about that. We've got digital health decision makers at Sanford and Providence on vendor selection and how they're going about it becoming much more important in these difficult financial times.

You gotta be really careful and then humanizing the healthcare experience which is an Accenture report. I would like to start, I feel like I'm playing Jeopardy four 100. let's start with the article on the Great Break. Women leaders are demanding more and leaving their companies in unprecedented numbers.

So this is a McKinsey and company report, and I'll give you a little bit of the excerpts here today. Lean McKinsey released their eighth annual Women in Workplace report, the largest study on the state of women in corporate America. This year's findings show that women leaders are switching jobs at the highest rate in years and at a much higher rate than men in leadership.

Companies that don't take action in response to this trend are at risk of losing hard one progress towards gender equality, and they may also struggle to attract and retain. The next generation of women leaders. All right, so interesting study. highlights several trends that all companies should be aware of.

Number one, factors driving women leaders to switch jobs. Are even more important to young women. Women under 30 are increasingly ambitious and they place a higher premium on working in flexible, equitable, and inclusive workplaces. Women with traditionally marginalized identities continue to have worse experiences at work.

Women who face compounding biases. Based on multiple aspects of their identity, such as their race, sexuality, or disability, often experience more disrespect. The next one, flexibility is here to stay two years after the pandemic, forced corporate America into massive experiment of flexible work.

Enthusiasm for flexibility. In all of its forms is higher than ever. I think we know that one. remote and hybrid work are game changers for women. And then the final one, managers are key to retaining women, but they need more support. That's about as much as I can do from this. It's a, it's a great report, so I encourage people to go out and read it. What is your initial takeaway from this?

Yeah, I think that we made some great gains in the past year, especially I think after the Me Too movement, and there was a lot of sort of lights shined on equity and inclusion for women. And I think that like with all things, maybe there's a little bit of a bounce back.

I know that as I've talked to quite a few of my friends who are female leaders. There's a lot of folks that are doing really well and love where they are, but then there's others that look around and find they're the only woman in the room. That often happens. I think that people value, I know for myself, when I came to talk desk almost two years ago, one of the very large reasons I came was the fact that more than 50% of the people in the C-suite here are, are female.

So I think that increasingly people are looking for, Show me, not just tell me that you're doing the diversity and inclusion thing. There's a lot of people that are looking at the C-suite and looking at leaders in the organization as. Representation that the policies are what they're being told. And I think that a lot of companies say things like, We're gonna have a diverse suite of candidates for each of these higher positions, and then don't really do it.

And so that's noticed and I think people are willing to sort of vote with their feet and go to organizations where they're seeing more sort of money where your mouth is piece

I'll say what I think we're all thinking, which is stop blowing smoke. A lot of these initiatives are just smoke, tie compensation to it. Hold leaders accountable board objectives at this level. I mean, unless you're going to have the same kind of focus on this as you have. The five hour conversation on the financials of the organization. then stop just blathering on, in, getting up on panel discussions and talking about how great your organization is and that kinda stuff.

I, I, it really is, It's getting kind of old. Let me give you one more excerpt for this. The broken rung is still broken. . Yes. So we aren't promoting as many women into management as men. Now, senior women who are disproportionately doing the hard work that employees want around people management and DEI are leaving for better opportunities elsewhere.

And women, particularly women of color, still face biases at work that make it much harder to advance. And in healthcare, we're talking about health equities. We're gonna solve the problem of health equities out in the. We've gotta solve the problem of equity within the four wall. It's, it's, we talk about it, it, we focus on the intersection of technology and healthcare.

So I'm a little out of my swim lane right now, but, but in technology, we talk about this all the time. They're like, Well, we're gonna, we're gonna start doing these things for the consumer space. I'm like, We're not doing these things for our clinicians inside the four walls. Let's do that first before we start talking about fixing. We're gonna create a, a whole person profile and use data in these ways with the consumer. It's like, Hey, you know what? There's an awful lot of work to do here. Not that you don't have to do that work as well.

Yeah. there's a lot of implicit bias out there too. I think that people wanna hire, I, I continually hear this from colleagues of, I wanna hire people that I trust. I wanna hire people that I know will work with me. And you think about those things and you think about diversity how are you going to continuously evolve your diversity if that's what your framework is. and I've, I've had it happen to myself where wasn't even given the opportunity to interview for a position because the executive wanted to go with someone they were comfortable with.

I, I thought this remote, I thought this remote work thing would be the great equalizer, didn't you? I mean,

yeah, you I would, I would hope so. Right, Because I think that this was before the pandemic really hit. So this other person who got the job was in the office with this person, or I was a remote person.

So there's that, and I I look out and say, Okay, well here's the great equalizer. I still think we still own our biases. And I think the problem with it is you have to recognize that it is a. and that you do tend to default for these things. And I think people don't necessarily push that. Because it is risky. You, you don't, maybe you haven't spent as much time with someone who you know, is different , whether they're color, whether they're race or gender. And I, I think we all as humans tend to default to people that we feel comfortable with. And in order to fix this, we have to break that.

I have a lot of women on my staff and one of the things I appreciate is that and again, I don't wanna speak in broad generalities, but they're more empathetic. They see a bigger picture. They ha these are generalities, but I'm just saying it's interesting how many times I just get focused on. Hey we've gotta grind this thing wrestle it to the ground and do this. And they're stepping back and going, What are you, what are you doing? I mean, what, what's what? How is that gonna, invariably, it'll take me back to the mission. It's like, okay, you define the mission for this organization cuz it was started as a one person company and now that it's 10 people, it's like you define the mission.

How is that serving the mission? What, No, we've gotta finish this thing over here. This is . It's just, it's, But it's great. It's empathy. It's, it's almost bigger picture thinking. It's I don't know, more of an emphasis on how does that impact people. I, I'm not saying just all women are better at this than men, but I'm just saying generally I feel like my organization is better because of that per.

Yeah, and I I really value diversity of thought. And you don't get that by working with people that just sort of always are coming from a similar background and a similar event. It's really important to sort of broaden that scope and you have to be purposeful about it. And I think that's a really important aspect and that will naturally lead to more diversity and inclusion.

Yeah. their last point here, managers are key to retaining. But they need more support. in this remote work world that we live in, retraining our managers is so key. Our managers understanding how to create connection across the zoom call, how to take those same principles of. Management by walking around recognizing people and seeing them for who they are and that kind of stuff. We need to help our managers be able to do that in this new world. And I think it's so important. All right, I'm gonna get back in my swim lane and off my soapbox . Hopefully

I made you get outta your swim lane a little

📍 📍 Everybody's talking about hospital at home, health at home. Market Watch article states that in-home hospitalizations saves five to $7,000 per episode and with the economy where it's at, and the pressures that are on health systems, this is an important topic. On December 1st, join us for a webinar with a panel. They're gonna be able to share how they stood up a successful program and work through the complex requirements for helping patients recover in a comfortable and familiar setting. You can register on a website this week, Go to the upper right hand corner. We have current webinars and upcoming webinars. You can register right there and you could also, in that registration, put any questions you. And we will try to address those questions during the webinar. We love doing that and love having you be a part of the conversation. So I look forward to seeing you there.

📍 📍 All right. So digital health decision makers at Stanford, Providence on vendor selection, digital health, business and technology. So this is Modern Healthcare's Digital health magazine that they put out there. let's see. They talked to a handful of people within these organizations.

They talked to Jared and Zack, at Sanford. He's their Chief Digital Officers, Sioux Falls. and I'll get the Providence person when we get down there and that part of the article. But when it comes to investing in technology, health systems tend to have a cautious trigger finger these days, says Bruce Meyer, President of Jefferson Health outta Philadelphia.

If you made bad decisions about how you use your capital, it's a very long. Tale of Consequences. Meyer said, people get very cautious about making those decisions about investments. Caution then leads to delays. And then you are not very nimble because you have the you have processes in place to make sure that you make good investments.

Some healthcare decision makers have bad memories from the implementation of the ehr. And he also added, there isn't a single EHR system that has decreased. A provider's workload. This has led them to, to being more cautious. And so they talked to Jefferson, they talked to let's see here we go, here's some codes from Sanford.

But it's not always easy to integrate solutions in a way that improves provider and consumer digital experience. Anac said A lot of health systems end up putting digital processes on old workflows. There's a fundamental difference between digitization and digital transformation. I love that quote.

Yep. And then Providence let's see, who'd they get? CEO Don Antonucci, Providence Health Plan in Portland, Oregon has this, say many of them speaking to digital initiative. Fall flat when you don't have education in the way that they're integrated with the benefits in your plan. Antonucci said, Well, there are a lot of really cool technologies out there, a lot of things that can work.

What makes our approach a little bit different is we go deep. With the solution. That was the case when Providence Health Plan picked Denver based virtual health to provide virtual diabetes. And so they made sure that it was going to be adopted. All right. That's the, that's the essence of that article.

we're in a tough economic time, this decision making around vendor selection, especially around these digital health initiatives, which are new initiatives for. Becomes really acute. What are you seeing in the industry and, and what are your thoughts on this article?

I think that the important part of the health systems really being able to a, both adopt in a more rapid manner. I never say quickly because I don't think that exists with us, but how do we go from where you are today to what the vision is? So I think people are pretty good about here's where we wanna go. The big aspect is it's not just about the technology, right? Technology's probably the easiest piece of of the triangle.

You've gotta look at processes and you've gotta look at culture. And so looking at all three of those aspects is really crucial when selecting a partner to work with, one that's gonna work with you, be able to evolve with you. I think it's really important to have an executive sponsor who's driving it as well.

I think too often you have organizations that have so many different stakeholders that are involved and they're not aligned So you end up with a difficult road about who owns what you're going to be putting together and how you're going to be changing things. So I think those are lessons learned that we've worked with, we actually did a study as well to try to understand.

How folks are thinking about the different technologies just from a digital platform perspective. And I think during the pandemic, a lot of folks adopted quickly single platforms that did maybe one thing text messaging or, or something in order to sort of relieve pressure on phone systems and different things like. that and now they're coming back and trying to figure out did that solve the problem? Did we just sort of band-aid it? Is it working across, is it putting unintentional silos of communication together, which we obviously don't need anymore of. So I think there's there's not only a, Hey, we've gotta adopt some new things, but there's a step back to say, did we get what we wanted when we first purchased these different technologies So I think you're seeing a mix of all of that. And on top of that, you're seeing pressure to adopt and to continue to do that digital transformation aspect as opposed to just, let's put in a digital product. .

Yeah. Not easy. Yeah. You're, you're, you're preaching as a acquire, but I'm gonna be provocative. What, what is shock today? I just feel provocative. it's a time where a lot of health system leaders are sitting in a room and. Hey, what's, what's the impact? We just came through a pandemic and then we're going through a recession. I don't care what the technical definition of a recession is.

All I know is that when I go to buy eggs, sometimes there's no eggs on the shelf . And when they are there, they're really expensive and filling up the gas tank and so forth and so on. We can define it however we want, but that's how it's being experienced. But when people experience a recession, one of the things is they put off healthcare because it's a it's an expense.

They don't, even if it's just a co-pay, they're like, I don't wanna spend that $50. I don't wanna spend that, whatever the number happens to be. Plus there's no transparency in healthcare pricing. So again, we stay away cuz outta fear, I'm gonna get a thousand dollars bill that I don't have money for. Right.

And it's in the news all over the place about it. The media loves to stir that.

So we've got a lot of a lot of people who are concerned right now. They're hunkering down a little bit. It's weird cuz this is a recession where we almost have full employment for probably the first time in a recession now. All history tells us that eventually there will have to be some aspect of unemployment in order to bring the recession back in line. But who knows, We've never had this type of recession before, so maybe there's a path out that I'm not aware of. So I say all that to say. Conversations in the health healthcare system right now are, are we gonna return back to pre pandemic levels?

And more and more, I'm hearing people say, We don't believe it's gonna return. Healthcare's gonna return to the norm, if you will, pre pandemic levels anytime soon or potentially ever. And so I think the question has to be asked. What is the future model for your health system? What is the future business model? What's the future care model? How are you going to play in the delivery of care in your community? What areas are you gonna focus on and how are you going to do that? As you're doing that, keep in mind for the selection of technologies, whenever things are uncertain, you have to plan for agility. And the only way to plan for agility in an architecture standpoint is to make sure that it's designed for agility.

You can bring data in from anywhere you can. Bring new capabilities in and tie them in. And so when we talk about internet and architecture, it is because it has a set of APIs and we can plug different things in. We can do automation across multiple platforms. We're not looking at monolithic systems anymore.

We're looking at systems that play well with everybody out there, cuz we don't know what the future holds. That's right. And. so when I'm looking at a call center, when I'm looking at not to do a pitch for your company, but it just happens to be on my mind cause I'm looking at You You don't wanna get locked into something that's tied to your phone system when you know full well that you're probably gonna have to swap out your phone system another day.

You need something that's very. Agile and, and can take feeds from any number of phone systems, but also can work with the, the plethora of new data tools that are out there and feed the digital initiatives and be automated through programs and that kind of stuff. I mean, that's, that's the foundation.

Absolutely a modern architecture is absolutely key. No place in the world. I think right now for buying technology that's based on old architecture, you need to be able to be agile. I think that is is crucial Aand I think you also need to be able to address more than just. One piece you don't need a ton of different point solutions doing things and then they're not necessarily working well together or things that have tons of different partners in order to compilation things together.

We did that with the EHR world , they speak right to it, right? When we adopted EHRs there was a lot of different solutions that kind of came out. I think about those best of breed scenario. Looking at how do you look at vendors that can work with you across modern architecture and a modern platforms and really address multiple things and how do they grow with you and how do they continue to work with you and not just say, Here's my platform doom.

Now you gotta go, kind of add different things on top. So, but again, I think you also have to go back to how do you deal with the internal things, because as you adopt technology, you need to. address What your processes and procedures are internally and not. try to Force a technology to do what you've always done, but how do you leverage what you've now decided to purchase and really utilize that to its best extent?

I think that's, I personally have seen that happen no matter what. The product I've been working with folks are, is the folks that are really successful are the ones that. Do their best to buy the technology that's going to support them best, and then work with those to adopt the processes to really utilize that pro, that, that tool to the best of the ability.

Yeah. What was that? There was a great quote in here, there's a fundamental difference between digitization and digital transformation. Exactly. And digital transformation is something that, first of all, it can be directed at. I've been digitally transformed, like I, it, I spoke a couple weeks ago to a group of people and I said I remember with each new thing, I would go to my friends and say, There's gonna be a PC on everybody's desk.

And they'd look at me and be like, No, there's not. And I'm like, This thing's really cool. I can like write my term papers with it and I could do all this stuff. And they go, I don't need a computer on my desk. That's silly. Of course, then they all did. And then you get your first mobile phone. Hey, this is pretty cool.

I think everybody's gonna have one of these. They're like, I, I don't need a phone to go with me everywhere I go. It's like and so digital transformation can happen to you or you could go along with it. But if you're going to adopt digital transformation, especially in the digital health space, Make sure it, it is going to be able to plug into the business model that you wanna Yeah.

Want it to be a part of. And I'll tell you a lot of, if I had my druthers and we were rebuying all of our all of our medical devices across the health system, I, I would change the con. I, I couldn't find a group of technology more closed than that set of equipment. It was crazy how closed off it was.

And yeah, you can't get access to this and you can't do this, You can't do this. And it, and here we are today where like we're micro segmenting this stuff off our network because it's a security risk and because it's all this other stuff, I'm like, I, if I was at that table today, we were starting a new hospital, I would look at people and say, Modern architecture. Addressable in this way, secured in this way. And those kind of things. I'm sorry, have I, have I beat that horse to death yet? .

Hey, you know what? As many times as I've said it, I you still run into folks that aren't doing it. So probably not watching this show though, .

All right. 📍 📍 Conference season is upon us and our team this week, health team and I will be at the Chime Fall forum celebrating their 30th year in San Antonio. And we're also gonna be at the health conference, HLTH in Las Vegas the following week. While at these events, we're gonna be recording our favorite show on the road, which is interviews in action. And as you know, what we do is we grab leaders from health systems, healthcare leaders from across the country. And we capture 10 to 15 minute conversations with them to hear what's going on, what they're excited about, what are their priorities, and those kinds of things. It's a great way for you to catch up very, very quickly on what other health systems are thinking and doing across the industry, so don't miss the chance to hear what's happening from these great leaders. We actually air this on the community channel this week, Health Community. It's the green one. So if you go out onto your podcast listener of choice and do a search for this week Health, you're gonna see three channels. The community channel is where we're gonna air the interviews in action going forward. This channel is also where community members like your. Have been invited to do interviews of their peers, and so that is moving forward as well. So check those out as well. You can subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Just go ahead and do that in your podcast listener, or head over to this week and scroll down to the community channel and you can subscribe there as well. So look forward to catching you on our interviews and action. 📍

📍 we're gonna finish with the one last story. We're only gonna get through three health experience. And this article comes from, well, it comes from Accenture, actually, health experience, the difference between loyalty and. And it's a research report healthcare providers and healthcare payers struggle to respond fast to people's health, experience expectations, and patient loyalty is at stake.

Our payer provider Benchmark Surveys of 21,000 US consumers reveal where healthcare organizations should invest to improve health experience. Consumers are holding healthcare providers and healthcare payers more account. and experience factors are driving an upswing in switching. If, anyway, last one, and I'll come back to that.

Our payer provider benchmark surveys reveal that access, ease of doing business, digital engagement, and trust matter the most to consumers. it's interesting because each one of these health systems. The primary health systems in every market generally has no less than 30% market share.

Right. Right. Because you, you can't have 10 of 'em. You probably have three of 'em. Right. And they share market share of, of roughly 30% each. And to a certain extent, they look at each other and go, Look, I, I mean, I want to get better at experience, but it's not gonna make that much of a difference. Well, when you're, when your population's already leaving and your margins are. every person who leaves is a big deal, isn't it?

It is. It is. And I think you're seeing if anything, I think people coming out of the pandemic are much more used to using the digital tools at their disposal than they were prior. And that includes now our larger our senior population is just getting larger.

They're using, utilizing the health systems at a higher. Than other populations. And I think the whole, Oh, the seniors don't need digital stuff. Like they don't want it. I mean, the people turning 65 and being El Medicare are eligible this year. We're the people that invented the smartphone . So, yeah you gotta, you gotta kind of understand where the aging population is going and the fact that even our older senior population is, is digital savvy now because they had to get digital savvy on the pandemic. Yep. They're, they want these, these access the access and the convenience of some of the things and the tools that, that were put out there during the pandemic. You don't always have to go in in person to do everything and you. The ability to have to call between nine, I always say this, between nine and five and then wait on hold.

I mean, it's just, it's, it's not gonna be tolerated. I mean, I know I, I had a specialist referral recently. Bill, I kid you not, I called every day for two weeks and all I got was a voicemail. No one ever called me back. And I finally just went to someplace else. So I mean, they lost a referral. So do you just, you, you can't, You have to give more channels, more ability.

The staffing is not gonna change. Likely. Bill, we just talked about this, right? Margins are thin. You're not gonna add more people to the phone systems. Yeah. So there's gonna have to be changes.

Yeah. By the way, to drive home your point, I was talking to Karina Edwards, and they have data on this now because they've been doing this for a while, and she's just like that older generation. They're adopting technology. They're absolutely, And she's selling something to the home and she's like, she has great stories of older people adopting the technology. It's I, I want to go to this first sentence and I wanna get your, your take on this cuz healthcare providers and healthcare payers struggle to respond fast to people's health experience expectations, and our expectations are changing. There's very few industries, in fact, a significant number of in. want you to go to web first. It's like Absolutely go mobile, Go web. If you call them, they're in fact, if you can call them, that's, I was gonna

say, they wouldn't have a phone number that's easy to find.

Yeah. So that's the other problem. And that's maybe going too far, right? But they're always saying, Hey, you wanna pay your bill? Go here. You want to schedule an appointment? Go here. If you wanna find your results, go here. And we are still. I mean, I don't wanna, your, your business sort of speaks to this, but we're sort of phone centric as, as an industry.

Phone facts and, and, and old traditional male centric organization. In fact, I live in Florida now and I just got mail from Providence because I used to live in Southern California and I thought they literally just sent mail from there to here. And they don't have a hospital within. Yeah.

Thousands of miles.

Thats of miles of, anyway. But I, I do wanna go to that sentence again. Healthcare providers and healthcare payers struggle to respond fast to people's health experience expectations. What does it take for them to re, to respond fast to those to their experience expectations.

Well, I think first of all let's, let's talk about omnichannel and the ability to have different opportunities to communicate, right? That is really important to be able to go about not only on the web, but can you text, can you actually do something in those texts? It's not just, Hey, you have an appointment. Here if you wanna change anything or do anything, you actually have to call. But what if you had that ability to, to actually interact via that text or a chat bot or something to that effect.

That would be a big satisfier for a lot of folks. Could you schedule online appointments? A lot of that isn't necessarily just the technology either. It's also the culture and the physicians opening up the schedules to allow for that. So there's, there's multiple aspects of, of how you do look. Moving along that digital piece.

And the other piece, which I'm super passionate about is not being so reactive, but going into proactive outreach and, and care models. As you look at what's going on with chronic disease management, et cetera, you get diagnosed with something, typically you're handed, here's all the stuff you gotta go do, and it's on the patient to go do all the things versus.

Us helping navigate through their care. And as we all know anybody who's had any interaction with the healthcare system, it's difficult to navigate. Even for those of us who are in healthcare. Trying to navigate during a health event is not an easy thing. We need to be more proactive.

We need to help people long, we need to use all the different channels. In order to do this. It's, it's crucial in order to change that perception and the outcomes. I think for a lot of these individuals.

Yes, in order to do all those things, in order to be omnichannel, you need to have tools that can plug into omnichannel. You need to have data, tools that can segment your population. And I love your proactive approach. The health system I've seen that have made the most progress have taken individual. Patient journeys, let's say in orthopedics or labor and delivery or whatnot. Mm-hmm. . And they said, We're gonna wrestle this one to the ground.

Yeah. And we're gonna build out an intentional experience. Yes. And, and they get a lot of feedback and they say, This is the intentional experience. They, they develop a muscle of defining these things and then they go on the next one, orthopedics, then they go on to the next one. Oncology. Then they, and they, they build out the experiences that based on expectations.

I mean, you're talking to the consumer along the way to say, Absolutely. Do , do what? What do you want digitally? What do you want? And I talked, I talked about this with somebody. I'm like, Oncology, what do I want? I want a video of my doctor explaining the diagnosis, because otherwise I'm gonna have to.

My story about a hundred times, and I'd much rather say to the family members, Look, I don't remember after, after they said the word cancer. I don't remember. Yeah, I blacked out. Right? Yeah. I don't remember a single word, but the, the doctor was kind enough to create a video for me. This will explain what I'm, what I'm going But you don't get there unless you're intentional and you think through what are people looking for and ask them what they're looking for. So I, I love that perspective. Patty. Great to catch up. Always great to catch up, Bill. I was hoping we'd see each other at Chime, but you're not gonna be there.

I know. But we'll see each other at Health.

At Health. Fantastic. I will see you there. Thanks again for your time. This is great. 📍 You as well.

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