February 6, 2023: Curtis Hendrick, VP of Cloud Services at Optimum joins Bill for the news. Cloud, human-centered design and getting back to basics are hot topics in digital health this year. CIOs are studying and implementing these technologies to improve patient and provider experiences. At least four research papers credit the AI tool ChatGPT as a co-author. Many scientists disapprove and publishers are scrambling to regulate its use. Microsoft invests billions more dollars in OpenAI. And doctors, get ready for your AI assistants. Hospitals have begun using machine learning and the medical applications are endless.
Healthcare needs innovative ways to address staffing shortages from clinical to IT employees. Are you curious about how technology can help support your Healthcare staff? Join us on our March 9 webinar, “Leaders Series: The Changing Nature of Work,” to explore how Health IT can be used to supplement Healthcare professionals.
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Today on This Week Health.
We have a long history of displacement with technology. We have a long history of disruption in different industries with technology and some jobs we don't do anymore. And other ones we've started doing. And it's helping people see the fact that technology is not the enemy. Technology is an enabler to our creative capacities and is an enabler to our ability to deliver value.
welcome to Newsday a this week Health Newsroom Show. My name is Bill Russell. I'm a former CIO for a 16 hospital system and creator of this week health, A set of channels dedicated to keeping health IT staff current and engaged. For five years, we've been making podcasts that amplify great thinking to propel healthcare forward. Special thanks to our Newsday show partners, Cedars-Sinai Accelerator, Clearsense, CrowdStrike, Digital Scientists, Optimum, Pure Storage, SureTest, Tausight and VMware for investing in our mission to develop the next generation of health leaders. Now onto our show.
(Insert Main Video File Here) 📍 all right. It's Newsday. And today we are joined by Curtis Hendrick, VP of Cloud Services, Optimum Health IT. Curtis, welcome to the show. Ah, thank you. Appreciate being here. Wow. First time on the show. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Plus coolest title in all of healthcare, I think VP of Cloud Services.
first of all, tell us a little bit about Optimum, and then tell us about the. . Yeah, absolutely.
So Optimum's got pretty, a pretty simple mission, right? Our, our mission exists as to help healthcare organizations provide better patient care. They've done that over the last 10 years through staffing and E H R implementations and things like that.
But more recently there's a lot, a lot of work that we're doing in the IT space. So specifically cloud, cybersecurity ServiceNow digital transformation work, things like. So we've gone from really just kinda that trusted advisor, helping CIOs make decisions to actually really being an implementation partner almost across the entire stack.
Being able to help them out with almost anything that they need to get done. And then so my role as the VP of cloud services is that, yeah, it is a really cool role. I, I said gotta gimme a cool title if I'm gonna come on board. So they definitely delivered there. Really, I mean, my whole focus is helping healthcare organizations figure out where is their value in cloud.
There's a lot of noise around cloud, a lot of articles, a lot of people touting that they did certain things, but not all of them are actually driving value. Not all of 'em are actually delivering results for healthcare organizations. And so I help CIOs and CTOs and, and payer organizations and healthcare provider organizations.
Figure out where is the value for them and cloud, where, where is their opportunity what should they be looking at? What, what should they be paying attention to? Because if they just listen to all the noise out there, it can be kind of daunting.
Wow. I'm looking at your LinkedIn profile.
Looks like you have some certifications. By the way. I'm OS two certified if you need any help there. Oh, great. great. And, and you have, you have the healthcare background. So UCI for a while we probably overlapped let me see. Yeah, we probably overlapped. When I was at St. Joe's you were at uci. . Mm-hmm.
And you were at uc, San Diego and chock Children's.
Yeah. Yeah. Spent about about 18 years in healthcare. It kind of worked, worked my way up from the very bottom. Just a volunteer helping out deploy desktops all the way to kind of running it. Took, held associate CTO roles, director of IT roles, things like that.
But yeah, some, some fun times. It's, it's been a cool story. Cool journey.
All right. We've got my gosh, there's so many stories right now. We're getting ready for conference season as well, so there's just story after story. Cloud services. I'll let you pick.
Let me tell you the stories we have in front of us. Chat, g p t listed as author on research papers. Many scientists disapproved. That's one story. Doctors get ready for your AI assistance. This is wired. Story number two. Number three, Microsoft invest billions. In open ai. So we could probably link the first and third stories healthcare transformation, the value of partnerships.icle. And then digital health:e start on the digital health:
basics.k about. Yeah. Digital Health:
And so he has let me see. Should I read some of his answer? I'm more curious to what you have to say, but I will read some. Cloud technologies offer hospitals and large physician practices the flexibility to access patient data when and where they need it. Some of this technology is already in place as noted by the expansion of telemedicine.
Now, patients are used to remote care, receiving direct input on their health status. From their clinicians in that manner, the number of physicians using telehealth grew massive growth demands that physicians have access to complete patient data. The next chapter, as we continue to transition to cloud support supported eh r, will come down to timing.According to the BDO:provements in patient care in:
that's a great question. I think that's where so many organizations are trying to figure out right now, right? Because as he notes in here, which I feel like this is where cutting through all of the noise is important, right?
Because he's saying, oh, well, we wanna be able to access anything from anywhere. Okay. We've been doing that for a while, right? We've had Citrix, we've had v d i, we've had the ability mobile apps, we've had the ability for, for physicians and, and patients to be able to access their data outside of the walls of the hospital, right?
But what's gonna happen here, and this is, there's kind of a, an interesting cycle, right? I, I kind of refer to this as this continuous cycle that we end up going on, going through where we will implement a new technology, right? Something that delivers value, right? Like an e h. Something like that delivers value, and then we go through this process of refinement of it where it isn't as laborious anymore.
It isn't as as cumbersome anymore to run and operate. And that's where I think cloud is really becoming transformative in a lot of, a lot of ways because we're taking what was a technology that delivered value to a healthcare organization, solved a problem for them, and we're modernizing it. We're able to take it to cloud native construc.
We're able to get it out of the, the geographic location of a data center and able to put it in multiple regions so it's a lot closer to the patient and customers where they are. We have the ability to allow the IT organization to focus on improving the application stack and the configuration and the experience for the customer rather than everything that sits below it, right?
So by allowing healthcare organizations to focus their attention to the top of the pyramid in terms of what delivers value cloud is allowing all of those things kind of underneath all those building blocks that are needed to get out of the way and allow healthcare organizations to focus on delivering that value.very much in a refinement. In:
part in that. Yeah, I I hate to use the a word architecture, but cloud architecture is just better.
It has the potential to be more secure. It has the potential to be more interoperable. It has the potential to be more extensible. You can automate on top of it. , it's, it's essentially a software architecture. It's a software stack. Yep. And so there's, there's a whole host of things as I just rattle those things off.our cloud environment back in:
Mm-hmm. , it would just completely. Shut that container off, not shut it off. It would completely kill that container. It didn't exist anymore. And it would spin up another one. And so the hackers would be like, they'd be attacking on this. It would disappear. Then they'd have to attack over here, then it would disappear then and so they're just not gonna go after that.
It's just too hard for them. They, they haven't proven that they are persistent. They have just proven that there's so much low hanging fruit that they just go after that at some point they. More sophisticated and really go after it. But anyway, cloud architecture gives us that ability and it gives us the ability to automate a whole bunch of it tasks that we didn't have gives us the ability to do disaster recovery in a way that could potentially lower cost.
I mean, there's just so much about it. I don't know about the, a I don't know about care itself will care itself change how we deliver it? Yes. We we're gonna have endpoint devices outside of the campus, and we can get closer to those devices. We could do edge computing and whatnot, but I, I'm not sure if that really changes health outcomes per se, but mm-hmm.
but, but my gosh, the cloud has so much potential even today.
I look at Cloud as a tool. and what you do with that tool stack will determine the value that you deliver. And once you start moving the data into that tool stack, right? Once you're, you have your e H r, you're doing your data analytics, you have your data lake, you have your E D W there, and you're able to have much more interoperable data that you can start interacting with and feedback to the care provider real time.
That's where, that's where you start to see actual patient outcomes. You start to see 30 day readmit triggers where things are, people are becoming aware of a higher probability of a readmit taking place before a discharge or during a, during an ambulatory in ambulatory settings where there's care quality connect, or sorry, care quality indicators that are indicating that we need to do something and take intervention early.
So those are the, those are the types of things. It's not to say, Hey, well because this is compute running in the cloud, all of a sudden it's going to solve my patient care problems. It's no, because it's running in the cloud.
It gives you options.
It gives you a lot, a lot more options than our traditional approaches. Let me ask you about human centered design. So going back to your UCI days and your U C S D and. I mean, human-centered design existed back then. I mean, but did we really practice that? I mean, one of the things they talked about in this article is that they believe clinicians themselves are gonna drive.design was practiced back in:
here? Yeah, so that's a great point.
I think the, the term human-centered design has been a concept that we've progressively been adopting over the last probably 10 years. In healthcare, it, I, I think other it organizations are maybe a little bit further ahead, but. What's happened is, is that we've had kind of technology lead the way in a lot of times.
So, especially as highly regulatory regulated environments, right? When you get high trust and you get meaningful use and you get the government getting involved saying, Hey, these are the accomplishments you need to hit, and the boxes you have to check, well, things aren't typically designed to accomplish, or they're designed to accomplish that and not necessarily something that's usable for the use for the customer.
So. What we've been seeing in this space then is like you see the emergence of clinical informatics, right? This is a practice that barely existed 10 years ago. In it, what you had was maybe one clinical leader or two clinical champions that participated in the IT design activities, where now you have entire groups, sometimes 15, 20, 30, 50.
Clinical informatics resources in healthcare IT departments that operate as kind of the advocates and the liaison between the customer and the business and the way that it is solving solutions. So this is something that I think is a principle that, that we could do better in. And is a, that's probably a, a principle that we could just kind of normalize from a a language perspective to say, Hey, are we taking a human centered design approach on this?
But the level of engagement from physicians, a hundred percent. Physicians have been demanding that and, and any of the care provider. And frankly anybody in the back office too, everybody has been looking at this and saying, wait, you gave us tools to accomplish our work, but these tools take us, give more work for us to do.
And we need to redesign these tools to to be more, more more easy to use for us. And and really, I guess, kind of. Pair the, the level of data gathering, things like that, that are needed along with the ease of use for the end user. So I think we've been doing this for a while and we see it in, in clinical informatics.
It's interesting to me cuz I think it's more than just listening to the end user. I think some people will think, wow, this is. Just listening to the end user. I think the other thing is it's more than just hiring a physician and putting 'em on your product development team. Because as you, you've talked to one physician, you've talked to one physician and so you're gonna get a design that's based on that physician's experience, and then you're gonna find another.
Physician who's, who's very different than that physician. This is a skill, this is an actual human-centered design, is an actual study of how to develop things around how people interact with technology. And it's something to be studied. It's something to be trained on. It's something to adapt as a culture and to really understand.
And I, I think we have to marry this also with the fact that we are holding on to. We have to work remote so vehemently and it's hard to do human-centered design via Zoom and not impossible. It's just, it's just harder not to be at their elbow watching them deliver care and go. Hey, you know what? It, it seems to me that when you're clicking on that, it would, if that information was right there, that would help you.
And if you're not in that room watching them do that, it's, it's sometimes harder. And that's part of the discipline of actually developing the technology around the the, the processes. Not only the processes in the workflow, but again, the actual person who is utilizing. only because it's, it's such a fun topic.
📍 If you haven't heard yet, we're doing webinars a little differently this year. We got your feedback. You wanted community generated topics, not vendor generated topics. You wanted great contributing panelists. Definitely not product focused, more focused on the challenges and the problems that we are facing in healthcare. We are only making these available live. So we are making them more dynamic in nature and we're doing them on a fairly consistent time, as much as we possibly can. The first Thursday of every month. the next webinar is going to be on March 9th. Which technically is not the first Thursday of every month, and I apologize for that, but I'm actually on vacation that day. So March 9th is gonna be the the webinar and we're gonna continue our leadership series. We're gonna be talking about the changing nature of work and a lot of things have changed. The pandemic drove us to work out of our homes. What does that mean? What does it look like? How are we making decisions? Are we making data driven decisions on that? How are we maintaining culture? How are we hiring? Are we hiring differently? And not only that, not only focusing on it and the roles there and the challenges there, but also on the challenges that our health systems are facing. The changing nature of work as we move into working at hospital, at home, and some of these other care venues. what does that look like? Addressing the staffing challenges in the clinical side as well as the administrative side. So we are looking forward to having that conversation. Love to have you join us March 9th. Keep an eye out. We're gonna announce who the panelists are gonna be. I currently have my feelers out for some some people, but you can count on the fact that we're gonna have great panelists. We're gonna have a great discussion. You can sign up on our website this week, health.com. Top right hand. The cool thing about that is you could put your question right in there, and I give those questions to the panelists ahead of time and we make sure we integrate that into the discussion. So sign up today, hope to see you there. 📍
📍 Microsoft invests billions more in open ai, open AI extends partnership. Microsoft E extended their investment in open ai. They were one of the original, and now they are like far and away the largest investor in open ai. How do you read, what do you read into that? I mean, do you read Microsoft? Is this akin to Bill Gates?
Email when he re finally realized that the internet was gonna be a big thing and he, he sent that email out to all employees saying, stop everything you're doing. I think this internet thing is gonna change our lives forever. Is this, is this Sacha na sort of saying, Hey, stop everything we're doing.
We're gonna incorporate AI into every one of our tools moving forward.
I think what this tells us is that that little clippy little paper clip that shows up in words if asks you to write something. I think what it tells us is, is that it's actually gonna be able to write my resume for me, right?
Like, I'm just gonna be able to tell it a few things and all of a sudden word is literally gonna write my papers and write my stuff for me. So it, it,
Exactly. I mean, that's, so when you start thinking about, okay, well, Microsoft's a technology company they're investing in, in open ai because they're looking at the the impact of chat G P T and these other language models and.
You're like, okay, so what? And then you start to realize, all right, well, most word processing, most email writing, most like content production exists within their stack. So all of a sudden, if we start to get kind of superpowers and the ability for us to say, Hey, we'll take the human element. Of, of what we bring to the equation, right?
Maybe the idea is, and we can just pipe those into a system, and then that system produces content for us, which is basically what chat G p t and these other n l large language models do. Yeah, I mean it, I, I think that that's, that's where we're going. I think PowerPoint even Excel.
I haven't seen any models around spreadsheets yet, but I would imagine at some point that's gonna come. And you could even say format a spreadsheet for me for with this, with this type of, of configuration or, or or intention in mind and have it produce the content and formatting and, and formulas and things like that for
How we interact with software is gonna fundamentally change. I mean, Sacha essentially said this at, at the at Davos. He, he essentially said how we interact with software is gonna change, and they are going to incorporate AI into just about everything they do. And what you just described really fascinates me.
I mean, being able to talk to the software and say, look. I want I want a PowerPoint presentation as we're gonna communicate these things. Here's the budget I'm using, here's the things I'm using. Create, create for me an outline and a background that, that you know, that will communicate confidence and it's healthcare related, whatnot.
And this thing goes out and u uses Dolly to create some images and that kind of stuff uses chat, g P. To write some, some stuff and then all of a sudden I'm sitting there with a framework which in some cases it's the hardest part. It's like, it, it used to be looking at a blank screen was, was very difficult.
Well, you're not gonna have to look at a blank screen for for long, cuz. You just tell it your thoughts and ideas and all of a sudden it's gonna go, is this what you're looking for? No, no, that's not it. Okay. How about this? And you're like, yeah, that's
it. We've started using, there's a, a kind of an early stage company that we've started using that is actually training models on our content internally.
Within Optum Healthcare it, for some of our operations, whether it's marketing or or responding to RFPs or RFIs or a lot of the things of the content production that we have internally we've actually started integrating some of this tool sets. So it's, it's not, it's not a hundred percent yet, but No,
but that's interesting that you say that cuz one of the use cases will weeder from PeaceHealth.
Was over the holidays, he was playing around with it and he said, I have to write an rfp. So he went out to the thing and said, look I have to write a section on Peace Health. And it asked it to write the section on Peace Health. And when it was done, he looked at it and he goes, that is better than anything.
We have like, it's summarized their location, their primary services, their, I mean, it just, it put it all in. And he just went, copy. Paste. Yeah. And put it in the rfp.
So, I mean, and it's funny because it's, it's actually solving both sides of the equations in a lot of situations, right? Because in this article, actually one of the other articles where it talks about authoring research papers It's, it's impacting academia to say, okay, well now students are now able to use these tool, this tooling to write papers for them.
And then on the other side, the teachers are like, well, if the tool writes the paper, can we not have the tool grade the paper for us as well? So I'm not sure who's learning anymore in higher education, but clearly the tools are are, are creating the content and grading their own content, or at least that's the, that's the theory or the concern at the moment.
And I, I think I read an article where somebody at MIT was developing something to identify whether content has been AI generated, which gets to the next. I mean, not chat g p t or or whatnot. We'll get to this, this specific story, but and actually, I mean, this story might be a good example.
Chat, g p t listed as an author in research papers, many scientists disapprove, right? So you can imagine this is a peer reviewed study or paper that's being put out there, and they got some content from chat Chief pt. So they're saying, Hey, came from chat G P T. The problem is right now there's lawsuits against chat Chief p.
Because they're saying, look, you read our content on the internet sort of consumed it, and now you're spitting out content. Maybe it's not word for word plagiarized from us, but it's essentially you read our entire website and now you're generating stuff on our knowledge. And yeah. It, it just, it seems like there's a, a.
A case to be made that there's a, a copy. Right now, I'm, again, I'm not a lawyer, don't listen to me on, don't take my stuff to heart here, but it seems to me that there's a case to be made. that it, I'll give you an example. Here's the example. The example is, you know those sites where you're programming and you go out and you ask a question and then a bunch of people answer, and then stuff gets voted and you're like, oh yeah, that's the answer.
Well, whenever I'm programming, I seem to be out on those sites at least once or twice going, Hey, I'm trying this I'm, I'm trying this logic and it's not working. And then I'll look at it and go, oh, yeah, that makes sense. I should do that. Well chat, G p t consumed that whole. . And so now, instead of going to those sites, what I did is I, I was having problems.
I took the code, I put it in chat, G P T, and I said, can you correct the code? And I said, sure. And it came back and corrected the code. I copied it, I put it back in and the code worked. Wow.
Wow. That's, that's pretty impress. Now I've had, I've had mixed experience on the programming front with that model because I've had times where I've asked it to produce sample code, hello, world type code of specific APIs using Python, things like.
And it actually didn't run out of the gate. There was some logic and it's like, I think one of the times it was a deprecated api and then the other time there was a logic challenge with it. So anyways, so
we're gonna hear more and more of this trading of stories like, Hey, this worked for me.
Oh, it didn't
work for me. Yeah, exactly. Exactly right. And every time it regenerates, like, cuz you say, oh, gimme a sample, cook for this, and then it, oh, regenerate it. And you're. Man, there's so many different ways to accomplish things programmatically that it literally is regenerating different ways.
And sometimes maybe one of the ways it did didn't work. And so maybe I should just keep regenerating until it works, but,
well, here's one of the things we've, I've been talking to people about is the, we we were doing summaries and stuff using it's not chat chief pt, but it was the original.
it was, it was version three of whatever the open AI text engine was. Mm-hmm. . And it would, it would do great summaries. I would take like a transcript of our conversation and say, what were the key topics from this conversation? And it would spit back or I'd say, what's the outline? And it would spit back the outline.
So we were using. version three, version 3.5 is a lot better. But what I would tell my team is, look, you have to check it because, and, and we, we always turned it to our crappy first draft. We'd go to, we'd go to this AI engine and say, do this. It would come back. We would correct it cuz we're the our brains are still better for now.
For now, yeah, for now. 3, 3, 5 got a lot better. My team is looking at me going, Hey, this is getting pretty. and I can only imagine what four looks like. But yeah I, I think I'm still telling people first of all, I'm telling them to check, check its work. But the second thing is, it's not re I saw an article about is this going to replace advertising?
Is it gonna replace fill in the blank? And I don't think we're anywhere close to that. No, I think it, it's interesting. So,
So I spent some time thinking about this in terms of the, the pros and cons of this and kind of its disruption and displacement and things like that. Right. And what's interesting is, is there's a, there's a place for this that it is going to be disruptive.
There are things that are not going to be the same over the next few years because of this, right? Yeah. But a lot of that is like yeah. When the car came out, the horse ride was never the same, right. And it was like, well, this was an inferior way to do it. And so a new way had come and it had disrupted the space.
I think in some areas that's gonna be the case. I think if Microsoft can effectively integrate it into Word. Some of these other content creation platforms. I think the way we do it is really gonna change. Is it gonna stop? All all, you can fire all your marketers, right? Can, can you fire?
Are you gonna all of a sudden put everybody outta work? This, it's like, no, that's not, or your programmers, like, that's not gonna be the case. You're not gonna get rid of it. And, and it's also good to kind of holistically think about. What these models are and kind of where their, where their knowledge comes from.
Right. Because have you ever heard of the the term wisdom of crowds? Right. It's this old Francis Gallin, I think research that he had done and this whole. This whole concept came from the fact that he was at some, some farmer's fair and the people had to, one of the, the things was Zula had to guess the weight of an ox, right?as was worth. And it was like:
And so I think when you look at what a Chad g p t, when you say, Hey, this has been trained on petabytes and exabytes of, of knowledge that exists out. It's like, well, is that kind of similar to like a, like a wiki in the sense that this is kind of this collective knowledge of everything that's out there and, and there's areas where that really works well.
But then there's areas where any type of, of biases that we have or systematic knowledge issues that we have. Are only transposed into this tool. So I think that's where we start to see some of the challenges in its application. And its, its implementation is, yeah, it's great at writing an R F P but there's a lot of stuff where there's a, there's a human element that's absolutely still necessary.
right, let's, let's close on this question. So the other story was doctors get ready for your AI assistance. Yeah. And this was about collecting images and using. let's see, form of ai, essentially machine learning to look at the images and whatnot. we don't have enough time to go into this story, but here's the question I wanna leave you with.
Cuz doctors are facing this technologists are facing this, everybody's gonna be facing this. When you are looking at technology that could potentially disrupt your job, what's your approach? What's your approach to get ahead of it? What's your approach? Make sure it, that you understand it, that you can react to it or that you can utilize it.
How do you keep from framing it as that's the enemy and, and make it work for you, for your career, for your organization, for the outcomes that you're trying to drive? That, that is an
excellent question. And I think, so one of the things that we do is we spend a lot of times with a lot of time with IT organization IT organizations that are going through like a cloud journey transformation.
And they're trying to figure out, and I'm talking to DBAs and infrastructure guys and database guys, how do we look at this? Is this gonna displace what I do today? Is this gonna remove the necessity from my job? Right? And ultimately it always comes down to why is it that they work?
right? Why is it that they work? If there's a value in that they're providing through the energy that they're putting forth they need to figure out how to do that. In a way, using new tooling is essentially it, right? We have a long history of displacement with technology. We have a long history of disruption in different industries with technology and some jobs we don't do anymore. And other ones we've started doing. And it's helping people see the fact that technology is not the enemy. Technology is an enabler to our creative capacities and is an enabler to our ability to deliver value. And so in an order, if someone just sits, Hey, well I, I only do this for the money and I have no other reason to do this, then they may not get on board with or maybe that's the reason why they have to change.
Cause they still want money. Right. But especially in healthcare, there's such a. A consistent altruism that I've found in people that work in healthcare, especially in it, is that they, they like the positive, they like the, the, the actual benefit that they're providing to people. And so if you can explain to people how their job might change or how their role might change, or how their inputs might change to help improve and increase the amount of value that you can put out there you can get people's minds out of the defensive.
And you can get it a little bit more into the creative and opp opportunistic mode by delivering it back to kind of that value about why
they work. Yeah, I love that. the thing I think I would say to people to answer that question, I love answering my own questions by the way, and I love for you giving me enough time to think about My answer to this question is define what you do not based on technology, but define the value you bring.
So are you a great problem solver? Are you a great communicator? Are you a. A rally of people. Can you bring people around to solve problems or to get excited about a project and those kind of things? Are you somebody that you know? And if you, if you identify your things as I write good code.
Okay. That's too, that's too low level. That could potentially be replaced at some. Yes. You should write good code. If you're paid to write good code, you should write gray code. Yeah. But at the end of the day, the skills that aren't gonna be replaced are one level above that. It's like not, let's just take it one level above that, which is I can identify gray code.
Not, I write gray code, I can identify gray code. So now you're using chat, G p t or some other tool that's writing code. And you can say, look, I can read whatever this computer spits out and I'll tell you what's good, what's gonna cause us problems, what's what potentially doesn't fit into our security model.
What if I, I mean, I read good code and I can identify good code. I mean, that's the next level up. But you could go a couple levels up. And say and start utilizing those tools and say, I I've worked with the 10 tools out there that write code using AI, and I can identify the, the right tool for the right job to write code more efficiently for our system.
It, it really is, first of all, identifying yourself with what you actually deliver. Not your work product, but the what you can actually deliver. And then I think the second thing is constantly be moving up the stack and using those, using the tools that are, if it's cloud, start utilizing the cloud tools and say, yeah I looked at aws, I looked at Azure, I looked at Google's cloud, I looked at.
Oh. You name it. I looked at all these different VMware's infrastructure and that kind of stuff. Here's the, here's what I've learned about these tools and here's how we're gonna implement. If you are in front of the tools they generally aren't going to displace you. Mm-hmm.
absolutely. Right. It's a great answer. Always comes back to.
What's the value that you create? Well, Curtis, I wanna thank you. This was a fun episode. We, we talked a lot about a lot of fun things. I look forward to having you back on the show probably in about six weeks.
If you'll join me. I think it'll be fun. Perfect. Thanks Bill. I appreciate the time today. Thank you.
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