This Week Health

Ed Marx CIO of Cleveland Clinic Discusses New Book, Voices of Innovation

How do you create and sustain a culture of innovation? What are the best practices you can refine and embed as part of your organization's DNA?

Ed Marx has gathered stories from 40+ collaborators on fostering innovation in healthcare. In the new book: Voices of Innovation: Fulfilling the Promise of Information Technology in Healthcare which we discuss on this, the first episode of Influence a production of This Week in Health IT.

Transcript

This transcription is provided by artificial intelligence. We believe in technology but understand that even the smartest robots can sometimes get speech recognition wrong.

 Welcome to Influence the production of this week in Health it where we discuss the influence of technology on health with people who are making it happen. This is our first episode of this new show. My name is Bill Russell, recovering Healthcare, c I o, and creator of this week in Health. It a set of podcasts and videos dedicated to training the next generation of health IT leaders today.

Ed Mark, c i o for the Cleveland Clinic. I discuss a newly released book, voices of Innovation fulfilling the Promise of Information Technology in Healthcare. This podcast is brought to you by health lyrics, helping you build agile, efficient, and effective health. It Let's talk visit health lyrics.com to schedule your free consultation.

Well, good morning, ed. Welcome to the show. Good morning, bill. Thank you for having me. Wow. This is, uh, this is exciting. I, I, I thank you for coming on our inaugural, uh, episode of this show. Uh, when we did our, our feedback session with, with our listeners, uh, we, we heard a lot of, do more of this and more of that and, uh, and condense it down to 30 minutes, so they.

More from our guests and they want us to really cover the news a little bit more. So we're segmenting our shows a little bit. So this is primarily just an interview, uh, type show. So we're gonna be hearing from you about, uh, about this, this new book, which was released just last week. So, uh, voices of Innovation is a collaborative book, which you pulled together as an editor.

So give us a little background on the book. Yeah, I am so psyched and I can't wait to get my hands on. I actually have. A lot of my, uh, friends and family will have a copy of the book now, but I have yet to receive mine, but I think it's happening today. So otherwise, I would show you the book. I'm so pumped because really four reasons.

One is there's a gap, right? Between how far along healthcare it is ver in healthcare compared to other industries. I know that we have a lot of good reasons for why there is a gap, but they're not good enough to substantiate such a large gap. It's really up to us, right? CIOs and working with our organizations and other team members to really change that.

But how do you do it? So I really thought a lot about that. At the same time, I was cleaning out my garage, so you know, that annual episode, clean out the garage, and I was going through, I have a file folder or a file cabinet full of all my Army stuff. So Army Combat Medic Army. As I opened it up, I found FM dash 35.

It's a field manual. That's what the FM stands for, and it's a field manual for engineer officers. And when I became an engineer officer, I was a non-engineer major. I was a psych major for my bachelor's and I was in this class learning how to be an engineer officer with all these engineers from West Point.

I was clueless, but what saved me and helped make me be a pretty decent officer was this field manual because you could open it up and find out how to do anything. So I remember one time I had a platoon. We were horizontal, uh, engineering platoon, and we had this mission to create an airport. How do you make an airport and land C one thirties?

So you grab your field manual, you go to the chapter on airport and you do it. And you could do the same with innovation, but no one's done it. So, Credit to him. They came up with some pathways, right? There's, and that's highlighted in the book. So the book centered around the pathways, but there's like eight key steps.

And so now you have practical examples from organizations around the world. So this book has 40 different contributors and they're academic, some academic mostly providers like you and myself, a lot of suppliers. So you have the Ciscos of the world and the Microsofts of the world. And you have big hospitals and small hospitals, all who have done it.

So you not only learn the framework, but you get three or four examples from around the world. Again, all different types of health systems and small hospitals who've actually put this in practice and have innovated. So it's a field manual, so it's something that didn't exist. So if you're wondering, gee, innovation sounds good.

That's a great buzzword, right? You so many books on it, but this is an actual practical book that you can actually do something with it and learn from experience. Those are two reasons, many more reasons, but those are two. Yeah. I love the, uh, the pathways formed the framework for the discussion, but I love the fact that you went out and, uh, solicited just a large group of people and said, do you have something to write on this topic?

Some, a case study or something to share. So give us an idea of just some of the authors and some of the, uh, different collaborators. I mean, you mentioned Microsoft, Cisco, and some providers, but just. Some of the, some of the, uh, other essays that were written for this book. Yeah, they're so, so good. You know, I, I went back in, in preparing for today and I was reading back through a lot of the drafts.

I don't, like I said, I don't have the actual book yet, but I have all the drafts of course, that we went through with the publisher going back and forth and the editing process and all the contributors, and I got really excited again. It was like, dang, those are some great ideas I've never thought of, and now I can apply 'em as well.

So I loved, I loved one from Spain, so there's a big. Public health system in Madrid, and the biggest of them all, the academic health center here was the c i. And one of the physicians talking about this is, you know how you use people with it, but don't just think about it, but incorporate others in your ecosystem to help create innovation.

And so here were these two leaders. The organization, they get together, the c e O gets together. They had a serious safety event. And they were determined to innovate and fix it. And they did by bringing together sort of this team of team concepts and how it wasn't just focused on the it, although maybe you could blame it, but they didn't.

But they thought, how do we innovate? And so by getting together as a team of team type concept, I. They were able to come up with a, a very creative solution to their specific situation. And then they've taken that same model now and applied it elsewhere in their health system. So it became this catalyst for, for innovation thinking, and that is by bringing people together.

In this case, they solved an issue, um, in their blood bank. And I don't wanna go into specifics. You could read the book on the, on the specifics, but, uh, it was a very key thing for them to solve and they did it through this innovative approach. So that's, that's one example. I love, uh, again, you know, I can give you examples from, uh, Johns Hopkins, Stanford, n y p, Intermountain, a lot of the, a lot of the big areas.

But what I like is also some of the. Public health systems. So there's a public health system here actually in Cleveland, and they really focused on this co-creation concept of solutions. And so they call it scrappy innovation because you know what? Not all hospitals like some hospitals like Cleveland Clinic, we're blessed that we actually have an innovation center, and same with probably Johns Hopkins and some of the bigger ones I mentioned, but not everyone has that luxury.

That's why I loved including . All types of hospitals. So here's a hospital. They don't necessarily have an innovation center, so they call it scrappy innovation. And so what they did is they worked with with others outside of their ecosystem, so working with partners and they tackled the whole dilemma around.

What we call social determinants of health, right? They, they knew they couldn't be innovative on their own because that, that's a big thing to tackle. 'cause that's a community, that's a city. So they brought in people from the community, people from the city, and they co-created solutions to address social determinants of health and how it impacts their patients.

And it's made a substantial difference. The care that they deliver. So that's, that's another example. I could go, I, like I said, I have 40 examples. Yeah, they're so cool. So again, it's just practical. So if you're thinking about, wow, how do I innovate my healthcare organization? You look at the innovation pathways and you say, man, I'm kind of struggling with creating a roadmap.

Well, guess what? There's three or four examples in there of organizations who created a roadmap. So that's how practical it's, yeah, absolutely. So in the, um, in the excerpt that you sent to all the potential, uh, You, you essentially said there's a set of questions we hope to answer in this book. So interestingly enough, I'm just gonna, for this interview, I'm just gonna throw those questions back at you to see how we did, did, were we able to answer these and, and just see, um, you know, what, what we found out as we, as we went through this book, uh, now.

I, I've read less of it than you have. I, I, I, I, I got to write an essay, which I appreciate you giving me the opportunity. Uh, I got to read, uh, Glenn Tolman's essay and a couple others that were in, in this section that, uh, the editor sent me. And it, it, it really is fascinating, just the, uh, the breadth of experience and the, uh, concepts.

I've got about 20 minutes. We'll just, we'll just fire through these. So where do you begin with innovation and make it real and practical in a profession and organization? Yeah. So the first thing is adopt a framework. It doesn't have to be the framework we speak about in the book. Framework's a framework, but have something, 'cause people sometimes think, well, to do innovation, you can't have structure.

And that they're mutually exclusive, but they're not. In fact, structure helps bring balance to innovation. Helps bring success. So adopt something. So that's the first thing. So we give you the hy the Hys, pretty well thought through, and it's been out there for four or five years, so I think it's a pretty good model.

That people could hold onto. So one is adopt a framework and then you gotta talk about it. So that's how you start innovation to create, you know, adopt a framework and start evangelizing it. Start talking about it. And then the most important thing is start doing things. It doesn't have to be a, a huge thing.

It doesn't have to be solving world hunger or even something as big as social determinants. Start small some start something easy, and it doesn't have to be formalized. You can have the framework, but it doesn't have to. You know, don't kill it with bureaucracy. That's a, that's another issue that happens in many organizations.

You put so much bureaucracy on it that you never innovate, but it's good to have this sort of framework and then start, and then start small. I think about a time when I was at Putter Valley Hospital in the very beginning of my career, we had 5% adoption of our IT systems and just by doing some innovative things, and again, doesn't, sometimes innovation is not inventing something new with technology.

It's applying it in a. So we just figured out better ways of marketing the technology. We didn't actually change the technology, but how we marketed, we went from 5% to 95% adoption in under a year, shortly thereafter at Parkview Episcopal Medical Center. Again, another organization that I, that I had the opportunity to serve with.

We wanted to change market share, but. Everything that we tried in traditional ways, we couldn't change market share. So we actually developed technology, some working with partners, some that we developed ourselves, and we implemented it. And again, within a year we had changed, we had shifted the market share and we were up against kind.

It was kind of like a David Goliath situation. So it's sometimes starting small, getting some key success, and then just building upon it. And so that's one way of, of, uh, helping create it. Then you, as you market it. So again, your ques question is, right, how do we create and how do you. Sort of sustain this, what are some of the ideas?

And then, then you market it and you get other people involved. And so there's many different ways. And one of the chapters we talk about that how do you get other people involved? And it's, it's very easy. It could be a SharePoint site, you could have votes, people could vote there, everyone gets 10 votes and, and people post their favorite innovation.

Another thing to do, and we, we did at uh, Texas Health Resources is do a TEDx. So everyone knows ted com. We did TEDx T H R for several years, and a part of that was a whole pitch session. So before that TEDx event, which was huge and people wanted to be a part of it, we did these pitches so anyone in the health system could bring an idea forward.

And it went through a process where we had judges and things like that, and we said, whoever wins, we will fund. So we created a fund and it could be modest fund doesn't have to be big funds, a modest fund. And so we ended up, not only did we find someone who came up with a very clever. Mobile application, but I actually hired her.

She was so, so good. She didn't come from technology background. She was, uh, on, on the clinical side and she was so passionate and her ideas were so good that we actually hired her to actually develop that. So those are some examples. And, and then the final thing I would say, I mean so much to say in all these topics, the final thing I would say is celebrate, uh, both victory and failure.

So it's okay that something didn't go well and just, and, and you know, acknowledge it and say, look, but here's what we learned. And my favorite example I think we talk about in the book as well, is we were really big into Microsoft Surface, not the surface. You know, today, that's a tablet, but Microsoft Surface started out as a coffee table.

And so we were gung-ho. We started working on this coffee table and we had developers and we developed a really cool technology. But guess what? By the time we were ready to launch, the world had changed. So, uh, no longer were people ever gonna use something like that, although now we see those sort of screens up on the wall.

But we, we changed that same development to, uh, to, uh, more of a surface, a small type iPad type unit. And, but took the same principles and developed something. We actually took the market to help with Alzheimer's. Early detection. So we took a failure, celebrated it, but we were able to turn it and make a success outta it.

Absolutely. So you, you answered the second question, which is how do you create it and sustain a culture of innovation and, uh, and, and that's so key. Um, and your last example, it just reminds me of the reason that Agile was adopted within Silicon Valley and within many health systems now, is to constantly get that feedback so that we don't end up developing something and taking a year to do it.

And by the time we get there, The world has changed. So you're seeing a lot of health systems adopt, uh, an agile framework. Um, the, the next question is how do you ensure that innovation once it's introduced, uh, is, is widely accepted? I mean, clearly you can do it within it and you can do it within, uh, maybe even some clinical practices, but how do you make sure like the, the entire culture gets around it?

Yeah, and I know my answer to the questions. I'm kind of blending 'em because they all. They're not so neatly packaged, you know, they'll blend and work together. But yeah, the culture is the important part. You know, if everyone who studied change theory, organizational change management, cotter, eight principles, things like that, know that really at the end of the day, culture is king and queen and you gotta make sure that, that you hit the culture and it becomes innovative.

Innovative. So I think there's a lot of great organizations, and we do give some examples in the book. Of organizations, how they've embedded that culture. I think Intermountain Health is one, is one of those I could speak about. And we do something very similar at the clinic and that is these daily huddles.

So we start early in the morning, we have five, six different tiers of daily huddles. We have 'em in it, we. As well as on the clinical side and business side. And eventually these merge at about the tier four, tier five level. So I, I sit in our organization tier six level of these huddles, and, and what happens is people bring up ideas or issues that are taking place and it starts making everyone think about what's the solution.

So that's an example of how it's embedded in the culture now. And again, Intermountain gives some good examples how they're just thinking about not only how do we deal with this particular challenge today, but how do we keep it from happening in the future. I'll give you one really good example. I'm trying to steal, steal clear of clinic examples.

'cause this is not about the clinic, it's, it's much, it's for all of healthcare globally. It's pretty exciting. So we would hear every day at these huddles about, you know, issues where people may not feel safe, right? In healthcare, you hear about all these things that happen, you know, Chicago, most recently where some employees, um, were, were, uh, killed outside of their hospital.

And, and you know, it can be a dangerous environment just 'cause of the nature of what we do, and society in general is getting more dangerous. So as we listen to this, we thought, wow, why don't we just create an app? Where with a push of the button, the app, so on your phone knows exactly where you are and brings the appropriate whatever code it is, brings the appropriate personnel to help you.

We did it, I think it took, uh, less than a week using Agile. So again, just embedding this sort of culture where everyone starts thinking, Hey, what about innovation? How can we solve this? And then encouraging it and supporting it. So that's how the, that's how it gets the stickiness in the culture is if people bring up ideas and you ignore them, no one's gonna bring up ideas.

If people bring up ideas, you listen, you take note, you acknowledge and you actually do something with some of them. It creates this whole culture. So that's the, that's the thing. It's, it's really, um, about a adoption of all this thought around innovation that'll spur more innovation. It's weird how it happens.

It's, it like spins faster and faster. The more that people understand it, accept it and, and embrace it. Yeah, you sort of create a velocity. You, you identify a handful of problems, you solve 'em, and then people go, wow, they're starting to solve those problems. I wanna bring this problem, uh, to bear. And sometimes we get caught in trying to solve these massive problems, like we're gonna, we're gonna solve, uh, patient experience.

I. Patient experience is huge, but you know, if you break that down into the core problems of the, what the patient are and you prioritize those things, we're seeing some great, uh, examples of innovation even from small health systems where they go, I can't solve patient experience from one end to the other, but I'm gonna solve their, the, uh, You know, the scheduling, I'm gonna solve, the intake process, I'm gonna solve, uh, messaging, uh, you know, it's, it's breaking them down into smaller solutions.

And as you solve each one of those, it, it sort of, sort of built on itself, doesn't it? Yeah. And, and there's examples in here as well. Let's take telemedicine. So telemedicine, it's a huge thing. If you're a small hospital, you might be, oh, that's too big for us. Well, you know what? Just start with video conferencing like you and I are doing.

Just start embracing some of the tech FaceTime. To start doing something because then it, it does lead to more thinking. It's a catalyst about, wow, if this works pretty well, you and I talking, exchanging ideas, maybe I can have this sort of relationship with a patient in a secure manner and, and just leads to more and more thinking.

And that's part of getting innovation in your. Culture, if you don't do anything, if you don't take those small steps that you're talking about. And again, there's examples in the book of, of organizations small and large that have done this. You take these small steps, they lead to bigger steps and so absolutely, you know, that's how you sort of embed that culture is by again, Doing something and building on that success, and eventually you'll be doing big things.

Yeah. And, and some of the things I, I find interesting is, you know, some of the solutions start outside of, they're, they're already going on and you just have to unearth them. Yeah. So, you know, the, the beginning of our, uh, telestroke program was essentially people using video conference just like this. And, you know, and it, it was, it was kind of clunky, right?

So you had the, you had the e h R up over here and you had, uh, you had the vitals up over here and you had, you know, telemetry and whatnot, and then you had the video going. And when they, when they finally brought it in, it was just, Hey, can you, can you make this better? I mean, this is essentially all the components that we want.

We just, we just, we just want it to be a better experience. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, uh, you know, what's an example of potential outcomes for robust healthcare transformation as, as we say, there's, there's a lot of velocity building. Um, do you find health systems, this is gonna be a great avenue for health systems to learn from other health systems, but do you find, uh, some of these innovations centers are starting to share across across the board and we're gonna see.

Uh, really a, uh, an increase or, you know, or an increase in velocity of healthcare transformation as a result of all this innovation going across the entire industry? Yeah, I think there's several catalysts that are gonna help sort of push things. One is we have to realize that healthcare is flat. We're no longer bound by geography in the past was like, okay, we have this city, or we have this state or this part of the state, and no one can really intrude.

They're not gonna build a hospital well in our territory. Well, guess what? There's no walls anymore, they're gone. So you have to understand healthcare's flat and you have to do something because if you don't, someone's gonna do it for you. And if someone else does it for you, it could not be the, it may not be the best interest of your organization or your community.

So it's really beholden up to you as a leader to try to make things happen. So healthcare, being flat is a huge catalyst People have to get ahold of and really embrace and, and look at that as a. Advantage. The second thing is sharing. So recently I, I, I got together with some of my colleagues at Stanford, all credit to them.

They're the ones who were the catalyst to get this going. I was helping them on a steering committee where we convened who we thought might be the top 25 innovators in healthcare, and we had a one day session where everyone shared their one best practice. So out of that, if you attended, you got to hear what 24 other leading organizations are doing in order to help transform healthcare.

And so that's another thing is that sharing we have to share. I think it's a, it's a, a duty that we, we do it obviously, you know, we have, we're in competitive environments in some cases. And we have to be very prudent. But I think it's our duty as leaders to share best practices that are gonna help people.

'cause that's why we do this is 'cause we care about people and the quality of their life. So it's really important to share. And then I think the book, again, being that field manual, a catalyst that anyone could buy this book or get this book. And. and then actually do something with it. And you're learning from global examples.

And again, big hospitals, small hospitals, academic, non-academic. It's really a profound mix that you'll find in there of examples and just sharing. So it's really important. I think we have a duty that once we discover something that we have to share because it's best for our society. Yeah. So what, what have innovators accomplished that is now, you know, just standard practice or, or generally accepted approaches to healthcare delivery?

Yeah, I. Still, it, it's, uh, it's small, but growing is the whole concept of virtual care, right? We were talking about that earlier. And so at first it may have started with, uh, remote monitoring of maybe for one disease, for hypertension, but because we saw success with it, now we are doing remote monitoring for multiple diseases and in fact, I believe that the hospital, as we know it today, will become increasingly extinct.

It'll be only for those, for the sickest of the sick. We're gonna end up in a situation where, Becomes our primary area to Convalesce and our cars become the medium where we'll have a lot more digitization of the car in terms of IoT devices that are monitoring our health. 'cause you touch so many components of the car, but I wanna be practical, so.

Um, the example of remote monitoring is a really good one. So now we're seeing more and more hospitals adopt remote monitoring. And then I think we shared before I shared with you or your audience, you know, how that's personally impacted me for the betterment. Of, of leveraging that sort of technology where I was getting real time medication updates based on the feedback they were receiving from some of these remote capabilities.

So it doesn't matter where I was in the world or where our patients are, we can help take care of 'em. So the, so the book has several examples around virtual medicine, uh, and that's a practical example. Um, I think everything remote, you think 10 years ago, You know, the things that we did today, there wasn't anything really going on from virtual, from a virtual capability, uh, in terms of the mainstream.

And now today it's pretty much mainstream. So, so that's another example. But I, I think you're, you're gonna see some examples in the book and also that are leading to this whole concept of disintermediating. The hospital as the center, and even ambulatory facilities as a center, but really the home becoming the center.

So lots of, so let's go, let's go off script a little bit here. So we, you know, when, when you describe that, and I think of Intermountain and their digital hospital and, and some of the other systems out there that are doing, uh, similar, uh, mercy Health system also as a digital. Uh, and, and what they're doing is, They're, they're essentially setting up a building that is not a hospital.

You wouldn't walk through the front door, but it's loaded with clinicians. So it is nurse practitioners all the way, uh, up to, uh, to physicians who are monitoring all these devices. Um, not only the beds in the I C U and, and and those kind of things, but also monitoring, um, just the, the daily devices, the IoT devices that people are walking around with.

Um, the . You know, just anything that happens to that record or any input that they can get digitally, they're now responding are, do you think we're gonna see, like, those kinds of services pop up, or do you think every health system is gonna gonna create that, those kinds, it's gonna need to create those kinds of capabilities of more clinicians behind screens, looking at vitals as they're coming in?

Yeah, I think we've, we've had that here at the clinic for . About 10 years. Uh, I, I do think that you'll see more and more of that, and it's not gonna be limited, I don't think, in the future to just . Again, healthcare is flat to, uh, your own geographic region, but you might, uh, provide that sort of care for, uh, a health system that you're affiliated with in China or, or perhaps just a community that needs help.

Someone needs help, you know, they're having heart issues. They wanna be connected to world leaders and heart. So it doesn't matter where they are across the globe. Again, healthcare is flat. So, yeah, I think there's gonna be a lot more, and of course, you know, the whole AI . Piece of that machine learning piece of that.

So you're seeing the early adopters now going out there and doing things, and I think that's gonna become more and more prolific. So again, the way we're tacking it, and I'm really trying hard to stay away from Cleveland Clinic examples because the book is not about the Cleveland Clinic, uh, although great innovation happens here, um, you know, we're seeing more and more of, of the push to discharge patients, uh, to their home.

Because they'll convalesce better the it, the patient care is equal to or better. The patient experience is better at home, obviously, versus being in a hospital no matter how great your hospital is, and the cost is about half. So these, these great drivers, and of course we're seeing the, not only is it the technology's already there, but we're seeing the, the payment structures starting to change as well.

We've seen some good progress with, uh, c m s recently on payments and, and of course in value-based care that payment structure's not as big of a deal. So you're really incentivized to, to allow patients to convalesce at home earlier instead of waiting in the hospital for someone to check on 'em once every 24 hours when they can do it remotely.

So, so many. People, organizations going that way. I do believe that's the future. Yeah. This is really exciting. I, I, I, I appreciate you writing this book or editing this book. I mean, you've said multiple times, it's a team effort, 40 different contributors. Um, this is an exciting time to be in healthcare. I think the patient experience is gonna change the clinic.

Uh, the clinician's experience is gonna change, and we're gonna see new care models that are gonna benefit. Um, you know, the, the aging as well as, uh, people that suffer with chronic conditions all the way th uh, through it really runs the gamut. I mean, it could be the healthy as well. So this is a, this is a great time to be in there and you've provided a, a field manual, hopefully the first of many field manuals for innovation.

Uh, so I guess the final question will be, you know, where can people go to buy this book? So, uh, Amazon's probably the easiest shopping place. So I think , which, which sort of highlights the whole innovation thing, but go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, if you google the book on Amazon, I'm sure there's, uh, a multiple places that are gonna pop up, um, to where you can try and get the best price that you can.

So that's a good place. My and my final word is, and it's, it's saved for the very last page of the book, but it is that if you wanna be innovative, You have to be innovative. So I always encourage people to not just talk about innovation or help create innovation in your organization, which is really important and good, but if you don't practice innovation yourself, you're gonna have a hard time sort of leading innovation.

And this is just personal things that you can do. It's nothing that's gonna change the world necessarily, but you gotta continuously make over yourself. If you hope to be part of the solution to make over healthcare the way we know it today for the betterment of the people that we care for. That's great thoughts.

Uh, I'm reminded, I, I took a real risk at one point. I, I Pres presented to a c e O and, um, they were constantly saying, we need to innovate, innovate, innovate, e e except for in one area they just said, you can innovate, but just don't get rid of my mainframe. And so I had, I had a cartoonist who work for me and I drew a cartoon of, of essentially what he had just said.

You know, it had a picture of him hugging the mainframe saying Go ahead and innovate everywhere. But here, And, uh, and I put it up on there and he looked at it and he laughed and he said, yep. And that's the hardest thing about innovation. You gotta be willing to let go of, of some of those things that you were proud to create maybe even a year ago.

Right. Uh, there's, there's new things out there and new ways to go. Uh, and thanks again. Uh, I know you're, you're so busy. Uh, thanks for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. Yeah. And thank you Bill again for having me, and thank you to all my contributors. They're really the magic sauce behind the book.

It's not, I just the weaver of a lot of different stories putting up in a framework. They are the true innovators out there, so thank you to them. Yeah. And I can't wait to read the book. It'll gimme an idea of, of what some other people to have on the show. It'll be great. Oh yeah, yeah. You'll find some great.

Leaders. So, uh, you know, this show is production of this week in Health It. For more great content, you can check out our website at www this week in health it.com or the YouTube channel at this week in health it.com/video. Thanks for listening. That's all for now.

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