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Newsday: Prior Auth AI and Breaking Down Geographic Barriers with Colin Banas

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Bill Russell: Today on Newsday.

Colin Banas: for every paper that was, AI is the second coming and the panacea for all that ails us, I could find an equivalent paper that was like, AI is not ready yet, or AI actually underperformed versus the clinician.

Bill Russell: My name is Bill Russell. I'm a former CIO for a 16 hospital system and creator of This Week Health. where we are dedicated to transforming healthcare, one connection at a time. Newstay discusses the breaking news in healthcare with industry experts

Now, let's jump right in.

Colin Banas: Luckily it's both.

You can, maybe you can't see it, but I am a UVA grad, but this is actually the DrFirst Orange. Wow. You've been in Orange your entire career then? Yeah I've also never lived anywhere other than the Commonwealth of Virginia, which is an interesting factoid.

Bill Russell: I'm looking at your background there , I see the football, the Virginia football, the Sports Illustrated, is that like Ralph Sampson or something?

Bill Russell: They did, they came back and won it. Well, we've got a lot to talk about. We've both been traveling we've done a bunch of 2 29 project meetings. You've just come back from Amdiss.

Give us the update. I mean, what did you hear at Amdiss while you were out there?

So I've been doing that for 15, 16 years which is pretty fun. It's, it is really well received. You can imagine. It was hard to not talk about ai. I. But what's interesting is you get the real world perspective of people actually what they've implemented, how they're governing it what their success stories and failures are.

The other really interesting thing is we had a fireside chat hosted by our friend Alistair with David Feinberg. So we got a little Oracle update. In terms of what they're planning, how their rollouts are going. We're hopeful to see another big announcement from Oracle maybe for their fall conference. because they've kind of fallen off the radar as you know.

The big beautiful bill passed, right? So a lot of stuff came through that. But one of the things I noticed, there was an article where the implementation for the va, they were asking actually for some more money for the EHR. Implementation. So it'll be interesting to see. We'll follow that. We're not gonna unpack the big beautiful bill in its entirety in this.

We are going to do it over a, it's too big. We're gonna unpack it over probably a couple episodes. We'll touch on it here. because we're gonna talk about telehealth. We're gonna talk about some of the things that the major insurance carriers are doing. We are gonna touch on ai. It's impossible not to talk about AI these days.

That's interesting. UHC expanding its gold card program, HHS leadership. Praise the move. Calling it historic and overdue. I would probably focus on the second, which is overdue, don't you think?

Colin Banas: What are we doing here? This is a pledge. We've actually seen similar pledges within the last five years.

Dr First actually has solutions in that realm as well as you're talking about the high dollar infusions, et cetera. But why a pledge, why not a mandate where's the consequences if this doesn't actually happen? Well,

Bill Russell: a mandate would come from the government. A pledge would come from the other side.

Almost feels to me like a pr move, if you will. Or maybe even a way to dodge what you just said, may a way to dodge the regulation that they saw coming at them pretty hard like somebody was gonna say, look, mandate must do that kind of stuff.

That's what it feels like to me.

Colin Banas: I don't wanna be too cynical obviously they're feeling the pressure and, when discomfort breeds innovation and results a lot of times. So hopefully this, they will remain true to their word.

And that because I've proven to you that I know what I'm doing, you can stop prior authing me for these sets of scenarios. That's actually interesting, that's good. Let's expand that sort of thing.

Bill Russell: Well, let me ask you this. You we're gonna touch on AI here now, and that is AI powered prior auth.

we have this sort of gambit going where health systems are investing in systems that can automate this side of it. And then obviously the payers have more money and they've been investing in, aI On the other side, we have our AI system talking to their AI system. How realistic is it to eliminate the administrative pain points by just having AI talk to each other and follow the rules on either side, and then just do escalations when required.

I'm not that cynical. I do think we'll actually get to a place where the automation. Can probably handle, the bulk of these things and that you really could use escalations for the one-offs or the very unique cases. That's the hope. AI is very good at this stuff. This is very efficient at mining, large records and pulling out key pieces of data and putting them in the right places as well as following rules.

I mean, AI is great at algorithmic logic.

Bill Russell: The main thing people want to talk about in the big beautiful bill is Medicaid. I'm gonna spare you, I'm gonna talk about other things in the bill. I'm gonna talk Medicaid with somebody else down the road.

I do wanna touch on something that I think has the potential to really change how we move forward with care. And that is Congress allows first dollar Telehealth coverage. For high deductible health plans I got this from Fierce Healthcare and a move tucked into the July 4th tax bill.

Congress made permanent a rule allowing telehealth to be covered before the deductible is met for HSA Linked hdps impacting 35 million Americans. This opens the door for employers. And digital health companies create low cost virtual care options without violating HSA rules. Here's some of the key points.

Progress in telehealth. I'm trying to figure out, there's a lot of talk around what have we done to rural healthcare? Like rural healthcare's really gonna suffer and whatnot.

And also there was a move just recently, I just read an article move recently, like, Pennsylvania doctors can now practice in, I don't know, like 20 some odd states with the compacts that are going across. Are we gonna see more of this? And I'll give you one more data point.

The last data point is I just got my primary care doctor in southwest Florida. It is with Northwestern Medicine. Anyone who knows healthcare knows Northwestern Medicine is in Chicago, Illinois. But they have. Doctors down here, they have primary care doctors down here, and the move is one in which, hey, if I have something serious, I might fly to Chicago and get care

Colin Banas: I'd like to think so. I'd like to think this is a thoughtful approach to, using technology as a force multiplier or being able to reach those underserved areas.

What you just referenced reminds me of Project Echo, which was many years ago, but it was using telehealth specialists. Rural hospitals could present their most complicated cases to these specialists who were, states and states away and everybody could join in to listen to the, how it was thought through and, what the ultimate outcome would be or what the recommendations would be.

And you were echoing specialty care throughout the country. Obviously, 10, 15 years later we've come a long way. The cynicism in me is that we saw this huge explosion in telehealth during the pandemic, and then it really shrunk.

Right. And it sort of leveled off at, I don't know, I'm gonna say 10% for Yeah. because you couldn't

Bill Russell: get reimbursed for it.

Is it gonna be the same 9, 9, 2, 3, 3? Or is it gonna be, some sort of fraction of that. The other thing that you also touched on is this idea of reciprocity between states. It that is a probably even bigger problem worth tackling than what this one has stepped forward because the states are holding onto this stuff so tightly.

I'm actually interesting, in how Pennsylvania pulled this off to be able to get reciprocity with so many states. That is the problem worth tackling.

Bill Russell: As an employer and I have 15 people on my staff, if employers can now sub fully subsidized let's just say fully subsidized.

I mean, it's hard to find a plan that covers them really well. And a lot of my staff is young. They're all for telehealth. I mean obviously there's a whole bunch of care that is still local. That's why I have a primary care doctor that's local. That's why everyone needs to have a primary care doctor that's local for those middle of the night and those kinds of things, I think this is a great benefit. I read the Providence, CEO, go to town on this and I was like, when you have multiple, it was just like, wah wah wah wah mean, when you have multiple billion dollars in investments, you make more money in investments than you do providing care.

I have little sympathy for you in terms of, oh my gosh, we're gonna lose some Medicaid money. I do have a lot of sympathy for just outside of our major urban areas. All those hospitals are just absolutely struggling and, to pull any money away from them is gonna exacerbate an already difficult challenge.

So, Ochsner Health. Is positioning itself as a national leader in clinically driven AI adoption with a strong governance model, training programs and measurable results like reduced inbox burden and pajama time. As AMA survey, data shows most doctors feel less in influential in tech decisions.

Ochsner is going the other way, putting doctors in charge of AI's. Why, how, and when. 700,000 messages avoided via EHR inbox AI plus ambient listening tools, 15 to 20% reduction. In after hours EHR, time for physicians, pajama time. Every AI deployment has a clinician champion AMA survey.

Colin Banas: think.

Very proud moment. They've been using some of our AI solutions for three plus years now as it relates to medication reconciliation and prescription renewals. This is Informatics 1 0 1. They just know how to do it at Ochsner, they've got clinical involvement, clinical.

Engagement and clinical leadership for these AI tools. I think I actually listened to one of the news days a couple days ago driving home from July 4th, and how to govern AI was how we needed to govern, clinical decision support, which was how we needed, I know we,

Bill Russell: we should have learned this lesson, right?

Of doing a literature review where pretty much every paper I read last year and then presented back to the group, had AI in it. And what's interesting is for every paper that was, AI is the second coming and the panacea for all that ails us, I could find an equivalent paper that was like, AI is not ready yet, or AI actually underperformed versus the clinician.

What is interesting is how. These institutions are finding novel ways to apply AI and at the pace that they're doing it. So I'm guessing when they say, clinical messages or inbox messages avoided, they're using AI to generate, or at least partially generate the replies back to the patient.

I did a paper where they were using AI to triage. The patient incoming requests to make sure that they weren't emergent and needed to be handled right away. Ambient listening, it's become table stakes, right? And it's only getting better and better. And what I'm really the most excited for is

And you would spend hours trying to, decipher all of this. What was their last cardiac catheterization? Did they have an echo? What was their last, a NA panel for, lupus or whatever. And the amount of time you would spend doing that and maybe still not getting the answer was astonishing.

And then now you can just feed this in and get your answers or even interact with it. One more digression, if you'll indulge me, is patients are doing it too. So one of the papers I covered at Amdiss was how patients who are very frustrated, 10 years of not getting an answer would take the corpus of their medical data, dump it in the chat GPT, which we can talk about, probably not the best idea, but if you're desperate and get the answer.

Bill Russell: I think people are missing the point. I hear all these things of, it's not up to the doctor and it's not up to the doctor's level. And I hear this it's not as smart as a human. It doesn't have to be. It's really good at these tasks of give it something and summarize, give it something and organize, give it something.

And, invalidate against its body of knowledge. I realize, it's, oh, I was talking to somebody, I wish I could remember who, and we were talking about it. I'm like, the thing is, it's my knowledge versus ai, and I'm not silly enough to think I know as much as AI because it's the collective knowledge of the internet.

It just has that bank of knowledge now it needs to know when to use the right knowledge at the right time. And that's what it's not a human, I don't expect it to be a human. I expect it to make mistakes from time to time. And so I will have I've loops in my automations, I've loops and I'm sure Dr.

First does and whatnot, where I have antagonist ai, I have the first AI deliver that, and I have antagonist AI look at it and say. Are you sure this is right? I mean, because I'm looking at this and so I have AI checking AI and it's interesting how much higher of a in, of a rating it gets a confidence rating it gets when we get to the end of that process, because it's gone through multiple loops of AI checking ai.

It's not just as simple as plug your model du jour into the EHR and go, Hey, we can interrogate the model. And that's my concern. And I think that's Judy's concern and everybody's concern with, just making clinical information available to health systems and saying, Hey, plug in your model.

It needs the right architecture, it needs the right validation, transparency, it needs all those things in order to be done right. And there's. A fair chance that somebody's gonna do it wrong.

The answers that it would give you were much more accurate because you were defining the persona that it needed to behave as. And I guess that's an offshoot of prompt engineering and iteration, but I found it fascinating. We're putting LLM into our solutions. We actually just announced with Elsevier that you can use clinical key ai.

Directly within our mobile prescription solution I prescribe. So literally when I'm, trying to prescribe you, for Lyme disease, at 10 o'clock at night, because you're on a camping trip, I can ask the LLM, Hey, wait a minute, what's the appropriate dosage for this particular adult weighing this much?

Things like that. That's the way to use it is in concert with me. Yeah.

Bill Russell: I'm looking at all these different models because we're doing some different things over here. Like we're putting every podcast transcript into essentially we're vectorizing it, putting it into a database that it could be referred to and you can interrogate it and ask questions.

So it uses its logic. But it only uses the data I give it. So it doesn't like, make up what Colin Banas said. Like, I don't want you relying on your training, because I don't know what you're trained on, but I love your logic. And so it's really, it's been interesting to play around with these things and I think we're finding more and more ways that it can be utilized.

It is not a human. I see. How many articles did you see? Where it beat doctors or it didn't beat doctors. That's what I'm

Colin Banas: saying. For every article where it kicked butt. You found another one where it didn't it didn't

Bill Russell: I think it misses the point. Like, I, we're not trying to replace doctors.

I mean, I think that's the point. I think there's a lot of work to do to get there, but Colin I miss these conversations. We're gonna have to do this more often.

Colin Banas: Yeah. Well, I think I see you soon at a 229, so, looking forward to that. Oh, absolutely. All right. Take care. Thanks Bill.

Bill Russell: Thanks for listening to Newstay. There's a lot happening in our industry and while Newstay covers interesting stuff, another way to stay informed is by subscribing to our daily insights email, which delivers Expertly curated health IT news straight to your inbox. Sign up at thisweekealth. com slash news.

Thanks for listening. That's all for now